StranikS_Scan 4,210 #187925 Posted May 31, 2014 И кстати по поводу обнаружения противника стоя и в движении. Как известно - обнаружение в движении отличается от обнаружения стоя - в движении расстояние обнаружения меняется вследствие наличия таймингов задержки опроса обзорных точек танков. Если мой танк стоит, задержка в обнаружении будет определяться скоростью движения противника. А если я сам начинаю двигаться, то и моей скоростью тоже.... Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
AndrasD 40 #187937 Posted May 31, 2014 Ага вот сам же и пишешь :))) Корректнее всегда называть так чтобы потом не было необходимости в переназвании. Как я сказал выше даже если разрабы введут в будущем еще кучу всяких факторов, что ни кто не может опровергнуть, то независимо от того как они будут работать или называться - их действия всегда можно будет классифицировать по тому стоит танк или движется. И еще один момент. Что должен делать/сделать юзвер чтобы труба работала? Правильно остановиться и стоять. Труба привязана к состоянию танка. Это безусловно. А к чему привязан макрос? К состоянию танка или к состоянию трубы? К чему он привязан, по тому и надо его называть. Ни один из факторов влияющих на обзор с движением напрямую не связан. А косвенно можно таких цепочек нагородить... Нельзя так классифицировать. Ещё надо чтоб у него труба была на танке. А макрос называется просто: standing. Какая труба? Никакой трубы. И кстати по поводу обнаружения противника стоя и в движении. Как известно - обнаружение в движении отличается от обнаружения стоя - в движении расстояние обнаружения меняется вследствие наличия таймингов задержки опроса обзорных точек танков. Если мой танк стоит, задержка в обнаружении будет определяться скоростью движения противника. А если я сам начинаю двигаться, то и моей скоростью тоже.... Вот это уже точно дебри. Мы рассуждаем не про обнаружение, а про обзор. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
StranikS_Scan 4,210 #187940 Posted May 31, 2014 А макрос называется просто: standing. Какая труба? Никакой трубы Именно так, обзор стоя и обзор в движении. Битый час говорю что именно так макросы и названы и именно с движением и стоянием они и ассоц. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
AndrasD 40 #187951 Posted May 31, 2014 StranikS_Scan, тебя не переубедить :) Ладно. Мы свои доводы расписали, пусть дальше sirmax решает. И ещё. Думается мне, все твои лекции о пользе кругов выше 445 надо как-то доводить до международной общественности. nixxxie явно не последний кому непонятно. Надо перевести их на забугорный язык. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
StranikS_Scan 4,210 #187952 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) А вообще чтобы расставить все точки над ё, я скажу из чего я исходил: Вот есть танк не важно мой/чужой, я не знаю какие там у него ттх, какие модули, какой экипаж, есть там труба или нет. НО я знаю точно - что у стоячего танка обзор всегда либо лучше либо такой же как у едущего, т.е. другой! И все танки в игре для меня всегда делятся на две категории - те что едут и те что стоят. А всё остальное - это нюансы и подробности, которые я могу в данный момент боя не знать или запамятовать.... Вот из чего я исходил. Edited May 31, 2014 by StranikS_Scan Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #187960 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) StranikS_Scan, тебя не переубедить :) Ладно. Мы свои доводы расписали, пусть дальше sirmax решает. И ещё. Думается мне, все твои лекции о пользе кругов выше 445 надо как-то доводить до международной общественности. nixxxie явно не последний кому непонятно. Надо перевести их на забугорный язык. Yes, it IS unclear to me how you can benefit from circles that are LYING to you - you can NOT spot outside 445m. I am well aware of camo_fighting "coefficient" that additional viewrange gives me, but it still works ONLY INSIDE 445m radius circle. PS: bug report: i just got drawn "standing" circle as if with binocs, but no binocs equipped; "motion" circle was correct and "blindarea" hasn't switched to standing (correct) too. ARL44, GLD/rammer/vents. I too think that your macro naming is BS, but i don't care much, name them whatever you want ;) , just make them work correctly :P . Edited May 31, 2014 by nixxxie Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
sech_92 469 #187977 Posted May 31, 2014 circles that are LYING they're not. It is all about your interpretation of the info they provide. I am well aware of camo_fighting "coefficient" that additional viewrange gives me, but it still works ONLY INSIDE 445m radius circle The circle, that has radius over 445m gives you the only ability to evaluate this camo_fighting coefficient in a convinient way, not apart from the map image.By the moment the config is flexible enough to use any combination of all these circles. Why don't you use the blindarea concept + standing mode of motiom distance + static 445m?Blindarea will not overcome 445 with scope, it will coincide with static. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #187999 Posted May 31, 2014 they're not. It is all about your interpretation of the info they provide. The circle, that has radius over 445m gives you the only ability to evaluate this camo_fighting coefficient in a convinient way, not apart from the map image. By the moment the config is flexible enough to use any combination of all these circles. Why don't you use the blindarea concept + standing mode of motiom distance + static 445m? Blindarea will not overcome 445 with scope, it will coincide with static. To me, this info is useless. I know that i have camo_fighting advantage (and i am aware how much i have it on each tank) and showing it on map as an extra circle only clutters the map. And is error-inducing, because to me biggest circle is always max spotting range (which in this case sometimes isn't). I know the numbers, still even displaying them is useless to me because: A. even base camo coefficients are "confidential" B. You do NOT know enemy's crew training and camo-related skills (camo/BiA). C. You do NOT know if enemy has camo net equipped I congratulate you on your brain computing and seering skills, if you find them useful, though... What i use now is: "view": [ // Simple model (one dynamic circle for blindarea), for most players { "enabled": true, "distance": "blindarea", "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.75, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xFFFFFF" }, // Extended model (5 circles), for experienced players { "enabled": true, "distance": 50, "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.50, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xEE0000" }, { "enabled": true, "distance": 445, "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.5, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xFFCC66" }, { "enabled": true, "distance": "standing", "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.5, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xFFFFFF" }, { "enabled": true, "distance": "motion", "scale": 1, "thickness": 0.5, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xFFFFFF" }, { "enabled": false, "distance": "dynamic", "scale": 1, "thickness": 1.0, "alpha": 50, "color": "0xFFFFFF" // "color": "0x3EB5F1" } ], And, as i stated before - there IS at least ONE tank in game, which can with coated optics equipped exceed 445m spotting cap with it's vision range when moving(!). There are however many tanks, which even with binocs do NOT reach the 445m cap so, in this case both "dynamic" circles are needed as well as cap circle. And i want both binocs AND no_binocs circles drawn ALL the time, so i know my real ranges - if they do NOT exceed max spotting range 445m so i know how much REAL coverage i have and how it changes if i move/stop IN ADVANCE. I use "blindarea" as another dynamic indicator for camo net and binocs switching (mostly i use both at the same time) as i use minimap a lot and this one is indeed useful. To be honest, i don't care what you use and how you use it, as long as i can use what I like. For me, current implementation is still lacking and i compare to Omegaice's mod which i had used since autumn (yes, the very beginning). Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
sech_92 469 #188000 Posted May 31, 2014 I know the numbers, still even displaying them is useless to me because:A. even base camo coefficients are "confidential" B. You do NOT know enemy's crew training and camo-related skills (camo/BiA). C. You do NOT know if enemy has camo net equipped All these reasons make any circles on map useless, independently on 445m. Maybe you shouldn't use map mod at all? Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #188002 Posted June 1, 2014 At least i know my coverage INSIDE 445m... Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
sech_92 469 #188003 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) At least i know my coverage INSIDE 445m but you still do not know anything about enemies' camo. So what's the use of your coverage? Edited June 1, 2014 by sech_92 Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #188009 Posted June 1, 2014 I know where i can NOT spot them. And where i CAN potentially spot them, if their camo is bad enough - eg. they do sth. dumb. It worked for me for more than half a year. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
StranikS_Scan 4,210 #188012 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) @nixxxie, I want to ask a simple question - as you consider masking bushes in the game? Nohow? :)))) This is an example for you: Edited June 1, 2014 by StranikS_Scan Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #188138 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) I don't. What if he sits behind two bushes? Three bushes? Which bushes to consider? How good his camo really is? There are too many different situations on battlefield to rely purely on calculation. And, with your example it would be much better to draw 1/2xviewrange circle - but now i kind of understand "scale" parameter... PS: i have tanks on which i can really abuse camo myself and with good bush+net i can only be proximity-spotted. Edited June 1, 2014 by nixxxie Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
StranikS_Scan 4,210 #188152 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) I don't. What if he sits behind two bushes? Three bushes? Which bushes to consider? In this example, if I want to have the chance of see the hidden enemy I have to come close to the bush at a distance of less than 50% of my VR, otherwise I would not have the any chance. Is a very useful information for me, when I try to see the enemy or selecting a place for an ambush. Usually оne single bush add +50% to masking coefficient (tree 20-40%, grass 10-20%). Two bush add 100%, if two bush then tank is undetectable if he doesn't shoot ;) nixxxie, on 01 Jun 2014 - 22:06, said: How good his camo really is? There are too many different situations on battlefield to rely purely on calculation I analyze similar the enemy masking. I know masking coefficient many tanks and remember many of them (I use tables and calculator). Аlso i can roughly gauge factor masking the enemy when he is seen by me for the first time. This is example number two: This model is more accurate than the model in the previous example (in reality, detection range of the enemy = VR - MaskingCoefficient * (VR-50)). The suppose that my tank is single on the minimap. Then numbers 10%, 25%, 50%, 75% on the figures correspond to the masking coefficients of enemy. The left figure if my tank will be detect the enemy at the first point, therefore its masking coefficient is 25%. nixxxie, on 01 Jun 2014 - 22:06, said: but now i kind of understand "scale" parameter... of course :))))) Edited June 1, 2014 by StranikS_Scan Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
sech_92 469 #188161 Posted June 1, 2014 I know where i can NOT spot them exactly THIS is the blindarea model, isn't it? Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #188212 Posted June 2, 2014 exactly THIS is the blindarea model, isn't it? No, it isn't because it changes dynamically, while i want static values displayed all the time - saturated. Stranik, i understand that some players may want to have unchanged values returned for standing/motion returned - although i'd rather used them with scale parameter (1/2, 1/3, 1/4 - i may even try this in future, but it still seems not enough gain compared to mess they will make on map). Having a circle DRAWN outside 445m radius still is beyond and i want a way to saturate them on this value - if you can suggest me simple condition in drawing macro, then OK, i use it. That visual guesstimating is plain stupid :) - draw them scaled from the very beginning. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
StranikS_Scan 4,210 #188215 Posted June 2, 2014 @nixxxie, saturation planned. Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
nixxxie 47 #188218 Posted June 2, 2014 Great :) , now we reach an understanding ;) . That camo circles are still interesting though, i have to think how to use and try them... Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites
demon2597 5,468 #188470 Posted June 3, 2014 либо мы оперируем зоной, которую ни когда не видим, т.е слепой зоной blindarea, либо мы оперируем зоной, в пределах которой мы можем увидеть противника, назовем её visionarea. @sirmax, мне кстати думается, что круг упрощенной модели обзора как раз должен называться не blindarea, а visionarea, круг очерчивает площадь внутри которой можно что-то видеть, а зона blindarea начинается за пределами круга 1 Share this post Link to post Short link Share on other sites