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Korean Random
Mr 13

About the problems with WN8

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13 часа назад, N0strum сказал:

 no one.

 the personal Rating

the xte.

 

so is there any reason you cannot use as alternative or don't use them now?

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I understand that it's not accurate to use v.30 since it no longer uses the method the WN8 developers intended, but isn't it better than using v.29 which is now outdated and doesn't include many new tanks or values for tanks that have been majorly overhauled? That makes XVM's WN8 completely inaccurate anyways, so why not use the v.30 and make a disclaimer? It seems to me that the v.30 data is reasonably accurate right now, at least as close as manual entry can be.  Or alternatively just remove it from XVM, because leaving it at v.29 doesn't make any sense at all. 

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I'm almost done automatic WN8 expected values calculation, hope the problem will be solved soon.

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I'm almost done automatic WN8 expected values calculation, hope the problem will be solved soon.

 

Really? That would be nice. A solution is now important :) TY

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i dont care xvm what to say.

i want wn8 v30 in game .

that's it.

no bullshit.

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On 12/08/2017 at 6:47 AM, Mr 13 said:

In recent times, the most common question about WN8 has been the difference of its values in the XVM and on the third-party sites. We repeatedly answered that questions and decided that it would be better to collect key information about the problem in one message.

 

One important thing you need to know before we start: We(XVM Team) are not developers of the WN8 rating and we have nothing to do with them.

 

Why WN8 in XVM is different from those on some third-party websites?

XVM uses table of expected values v.29.1. It's the latest available correct table. Some other websites uses table v.30, which is incorrect. It can't even be called WN8.

 

Why table v.30 is incorrect?

WN8 is not static formula. It also uses a table of expected values which must be collected and updated in strict accordance with the methodology which was created by WN8 developers.

Unfortunately, formula developers no longer support their expected value table.
However, there are some enthusiasts who decided to fill the table manually, but not in accordance with the methodology by WN8 developers. I.e. instead of filling the table on the basis of real statistics, they adding values "by hand", mostly copying them from other tanks.
In fact, the rating calculated on the basis of the v.30 table can not be called WN8, because the fundamental bases of the calculation are violated.

 
What will be with WN8 in future?
At this moment there is no answer. WN8 is dying. The values which some sites shows under "WN8" name in fact is not WN8 at all.

If in the near future no one is going to collect the correct values for WN8, it can be excluded from the XVM.
Of course, we considered collecting expected values on our side. This could solve both the problem of correctness and a rare update of the table (and therefore sharp gap in the rating with every update), but with a detailed investigation of the WN8's developers method we found out out that collecting of values cannot be fully automated and requires manual control, which is inadmissible in our case.

 

....

 

The basis for the change to WN8 expected values that resulted in v30 (old format) and v31 (new format) was done with the full agreement of the WN8 team that's still around, for the following reasons:

  • The continual flow of new tanks resulted in a workload that no-one wanted to support, and there were always 'missing' tanks - the old system was not sustainable
  • The new method using v31 never has missing tanks, ever, and is sustainable with no work at all
  • The new system reduces the expected value table to a 50 row table that is easy for modders to code into their mods as a static table
  • WN8 was intended to be an account level rating, and the change to average per tier and type expected values make almost no difference to the rating for the vast majority of players
  • Some tanks in some tiers are OP or UP compared to the others. The old system concealed that.
  • The new system doesn't hide the OP and UP tanks - this increases the pressure on WG to fix the OP and UP tanks - which we all want, right?

So the change was made for sound reasons and it works. I'm sorry you dont like it. Its your decision what you include in XVM, but if you put WN8 in, you might as well do it the way it is now as the community is confused why WN8 is different on XVM to what it is elsewhere. Here is v31 expected values for WN8:

type tier frag dmg spot def win
1 1 1.69 223.29 1.42 1.40 58.15
1 2 1.40 240.21 1.63 1.51 58.00
1 3 1.21 290.59 1.71 1.32 57.68
1 4 0.92 329.26 1.75 1.11 55.86
1 5 0.69 393.22 2.40 0.75 54.30
1 6 0.61 511.48 2.28 0.65 52.51
1 7 0.65 702.70 2.10 0.67 51.16
1 8 0.70 860.12 2.40 0.71 51.82
1 9 0.68 1100.00 2.15 0.63 51.27
1 10 0.68 1400.00 2.15 0.63 51.27
2 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
2 2 1.48 251.45 1.23 1.27 57.78
2 3 1.32 318.93 1.22 1.28 58.30
2 4 1.06 395.45 1.36 1.07 56.09
2 5 1.02 513.45 1.41 1.05 54.45
2 6 1.00 745.25 1.45 1.00 53.92
2 7 0.95 928.14 1.46 0.99 53.53
2 8 0.88 1162.12 1.31 0.91 51.62
2 9 0.97 1540.28 1.32 0.80 50.96
2 10 1.03 1882.27 1.43 0.80 49.60
3 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
3 2 1.48 251.45 1.23 1.27 57.78
3 3 1.17 345.70 0.84 0.89 56.30
3 4 1.25 413.58 1.13 1.32 56.33
3 5 1.25 657.37 1.24 1.15 56.07
3 6 1.04 832.30 0.92 0.88 53.91
3 7 1.00 1106.68 1.02 0.92 54.23
3 8 0.92 1283.61 1.07 0.81 52.12
3 9 0.90 1579.22 0.98 0.68 51.03
3 10 0.95 1918.96 1.08 0.64 49.34
4 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
4 2 1.82 299.69 0.94 1.51 58.65
4 3 1.58 394.74 0.98 1.50 58.67
4 4 1.34 481.33 0.91 1.30 57.11
4 5 1.18 605.39 0.81 1.33 54.63
4 6 1.05 802.78 0.77 1.08 53.20
4 7 1.05 1053.92 0.84 1.10 52.86
4 8 1.01 1369.06 0.69 0.98 51.12
4 9 1.02 1719.84 0.69 0.81 50.82
4 10 1.12 2153.40 0.71 0.64 49.22
5 1 1.37 216.63 0.19 1.35 56.29
5 2 1.37 216.63 0.19 1.35 56.29
5 3 1.12 353.64 0.14 1.52 55.62
5 4 1.02 426.75 0.12 1.48 54.47
5 5 1.13 653.26 0.10 1.47 54.02
5 6 1.04 892.83 0.10 1.36 53.17
5 7 0.93 1094.53 0.06 1.02 51.91
5 8 0.90 1295.90 0.04 0.77 51.09
5 9 0.90 1525.78 0.04 0.74 50.33
5 10 0.93 1770.55 0.04 0.75 49.69

 

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On 9/30/2017 at 8:46 AM, Gryphon_ said:

 

The basis for the change to WN8 expected values that resulted in v30 (old format) and v31 (new format) was done with the full agreement of the WN8 team that's still around, for the following reasons:

  • The continual flow of new tanks resulted in a workload that no-one wanted to support, and there were always 'missing' tanks - the old system was not sustainable
  • The new method using v31 never has missing tanks, ever, and is sustainable with no work at all
  • The new system reduces the expected value table to a 50 row table that is easy for modders to code into their mods as a static table
  • WN8 was intended to be an account level rating, and the change to average per tier and type expected values make almost no difference to the rating for the vast majority of players
  • Some tanks in some tiers are OP or UP compared to the others. The old system concealed that.
  • The new system doesn't hide the OP and UP tanks - this increases the pressure on WG to fix the OP and UP tanks - which we all want, right?

So the change was made for sound reasons and it works. I'm sorry you dont like it. Its your decision what you include in XVM, but if you put WN8 in, you might as well do it the way it is now as the community is confused why WN8 is different on XVM to what it is elsewhere. Here is v31 expected values for WN8:

type tier frag dmg spot def win
1 1 1.69 223.29 1.42 1.40 58.15
1 2 1.40 240.21 1.63 1.51 58.00
1 3 1.21 290.59 1.71 1.32 57.68
1 4 0.92 329.26 1.75 1.11 55.86
1 5 0.69 393.22 2.40 0.75 54.30
1 6 0.61 511.48 2.28 0.65 52.51
1 7 0.65 702.70 2.10 0.67 51.16
1 8 0.70 860.12 2.40 0.71 51.82
1 9 0.68 1100.00 2.15 0.63 51.27
1 10 0.68 1400.00 2.15 0.63 51.27
2 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
2 2 1.48 251.45 1.23 1.27 57.78
2 3 1.32 318.93 1.22 1.28 58.30
2 4 1.06 395.45 1.36 1.07 56.09
2 5 1.02 513.45 1.41 1.05 54.45
2 6 1.00 745.25 1.45 1.00 53.92
2 7 0.95 928.14 1.46 0.99 53.53
2 8 0.88 1162.12 1.31 0.91 51.62
2 9 0.97 1540.28 1.32 0.80 50.96
2 10 1.03 1882.27 1.43 0.80 49.60
3 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
3 2 1.48 251.45 1.23 1.27 57.78
3 3 1.17 345.70 0.84 0.89 56.30
3 4 1.25 413.58 1.13 1.32 56.33
3 5 1.25 657.37 1.24 1.15 56.07
3 6 1.04 832.30 0.92 0.88 53.91
3 7 1.00 1106.68 1.02 0.92 54.23
3 8 0.92 1283.61 1.07 0.81 52.12
3 9 0.90 1579.22 0.98 0.68 51.03
3 10 0.95 1918.96 1.08 0.64 49.34
4 1 1.83 232.98 0.91 1.16 58.30
4 2 1.82 299.69 0.94 1.51 58.65
4 3 1.58 394.74 0.98 1.50 58.67
4 4 1.34 481.33 0.91 1.30 57.11
4 5 1.18 605.39 0.81 1.33 54.63
4 6 1.05 802.78 0.77 1.08 53.20
4 7 1.05 1053.92 0.84 1.10 52.86
4 8 1.01 1369.06 0.69 0.98 51.12
4 9 1.02 1719.84 0.69 0.81 50.82
4 10 1.12 2153.40 0.71 0.64 49.22
5 1 1.37 216.63 0.19 1.35 56.29
5 2 1.37 216.63 0.19 1.35 56.29
5 3 1.12 353.64 0.14 1.52 55.62
5 4 1.02 426.75 0.12 1.48 54.47
5 5 1.13 653.26 0.10 1.47 54.02
5 6 1.04 892.83 0.10 1.36 53.17
5 7 0.93 1094.53 0.06 1.02 51.91
5 8 0.90 1295.90 0.04 0.77 51.09
5 9 0.90 1525.78 0.04 0.74 50.33
5 10 0.93 1770.55 0.04 0.75 49.69

 

This table does not differ from wrong v30 in any aspect except numbers.

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14 hours ago, Caryon said:

This table does not differ from wrong v30 in any aspect except numbers.

V31 is just a reformat of V30, as it is no longer necessary to have a row for every tank anymore. 

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10 hours ago, Gryphon_ said:

V31 is just a reformat of V30, as it is no longer necessary to have a row for every tank anymore. 

When WG makes a step in right direction making per tank values for their new rating you still argue for measuring Maus and AMX 50B as one type of machine with equal expected values? Really?

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Gryphon_ ,WN8 developer came to bring his arguments and XVM keep ignoring..... Pathetic

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Please, follow our discussion on wotlabs forum.

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@Pagon1s we don't ignore any messages really. If there is no instant answer it does not mean we'll not do anything with this. We can't(physically) respond to all messages, but all users issues are always taken into account.
And about WN8, as @sirmax mentioned above, currently we're investigating a correct way to make all calculations 100% automated, what could be a lot better whan any approaches used before.

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I don't get it. If I undestand right the new idea of making automatic XVM calculations for expected values for tanks, then how the hell is that possible, to make an fair and not dummy version of xvm with automatic values for same tiers and vehicle types? Is that any chance, to compare for example KW-4 and Defender, is-6 and Defender? T-34 and Defender or ivnt patriot, scorpion G and the at 15, Strv and ob 263 (etc) and their ingame abillities? For me, it wil end good only for the rerolls, who play only OP tanks....
And there is of course the metter of arty. It was nerfed and now it makes less dmg/game, as far, as I can see, v30 requies players to do far more dmg on arta then before patch with neft, wtf? Why? It's none sense! Where is the logic in that? Is the v31 doing the same or is it logic and fixed right now?
But really, can someone from xvm team explain me, why is this so FAR unfair right now? This automatic metod is based for the rerolled accounts and try hard players, and it accualy punish standard players for playing with all tanks in game...
I may undestand it wrong but seriously, I dont believe there is ANY way to compare all tank at the same tier and type, thats just impossible, and as far, as I read that subjects and news about it, I feel like you doing it completly differend from now, witch is basicaly destroying everything you've been working for till now.
Explaining the unequality and unfairness of that system, that the WG shoud make all tanks same is just dumb, really, ivnt if the WG will fix all the OP tanks and will buff all crappy tanks, the stats will stay on your account from the battles they were OP or shity anyway, so thats pointless for the OVERALL WN8 score anyway...

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